Wally West vs Goku

USER · 2023-08-23T22:25:57-0400

Axel7 dijo:
Y aún así son capaces de pasar el ki individual a otro ser humano siendo maquina incluso.

Según palabras de Akira Toriyama, el ki se compone en tres partes:

Genki (元気 lit. "Vigor"): La energía de la persona, siendo que es la manifestación en forma de energía del espíritu de un ser vivo. Se basa básicamente en la energía física, la fuerza vital y la energía espiritual.
Yūki (勇気 lit. "Coraje"): El valor de la persona. Se basa en su disposición emocional en un momento determinado. Si un individuo tiene miedo de otro individuo, entonces pierde su Yūki, y en consecuencia una cantidad considerable de su poder.
Shōki (正気 lit. "Mente"): Es la mente de la persona. Se basa en el juicio correcto y la calma. Si el individuo abandona toda prudencia ante otra persona, entonces pierde su Shōki, y una notable cantidad de poder también.

There is also the divine Ki, but even though Jiren doesn't have it, he can cause problems to those who use it.

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T01:13:22-0400

Darth Freezer dijo:
Existe algún equivalente a la Speed Force en DB?, Dypso no podría serlo?

DB hace rato paso de la etapa en que tendría sentido usar algo así como la "speed force", trascienden ese tipo de cosas desde la Batalla de los Dioses con eso del "ki divino" y cosas raras.

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T01:17:39-0400

BLACK MAMBA dijo:
Wally Speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dragon Ball Verse

Meh, sigue siendo inferior al feat en que pudo escapar el suficiente tiempo de Black Flash. El problema acá es el encuadre, básicamente desde antes de la pelea con Piccolo Toriyama dejo de encuadrar la velocidad como algo "tan importante", lo que le resta espectacularidad muy superficial a las velocidades que se manejan en DB. Creo que el máximo punto de "wow que veloz" fue en la pelea de Krillin contra Jackie Chun...
Es como OPM, ahí como se le da tanta importancia a la destrucción, puede aparentar que sus personajes son muchisimo más OP de lo que en verdad son.
Por último, eso de "el más rápido en el multiverso" se ha demostrado falso una y otra vez para Wally (y cualquier Flash).

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T01:18:58-0400

Axel7 dijo:
Y aún así son capaces de pasar el ki individual a otro ser humano siendo maquina incluso.

Por qué las maquinas no están "muertas"...

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T01:20:33-0400

BLACK MAMBA dijo:
Según palabras de Akira Toriyama, el ki se compone en tres partes:

Genki (元気 lit. "Vigor"): La energía de la persona, siendo que es la manifestación en forma de energía del espíritu de un ser vivo. Se basa básicamente en la energía física, la fuerza vital y la energía espiritual.

Yūki (勇気 lit. "Coraje"): El valor de la persona. Se basa en su disposición emocional en un momento determinado. Si un individuo tiene miedo de otro individuo, entonces pierde su Yūki, y en consecuencia una cantidad considerable de su poder.

Shōki (正気 lit. "Mente"): Es la mente de la persona. Se basa en el juicio correcto y la calma. Si el individuo abandona toda prudencia ante otra persona, entonces pierde su Shōki, y una notable cantidad de poder también.

There is also the divine Ki, but even though Jiren doesn't have it, he can cause problems to those who use it.

That destroy so much of the current analysis of DB...

Axel7 · 2023-08-26T08:39:57-0400

Orfosaurio dijo:
Por qué las maquinas no están "muertas"...

Lo digo por el núcleo de energía que le pusieron qué podría tener otro tipo de energía aparte del ki para que sea infinita.

USER · 2023-08-26T10:24:04-0400

Orfosaurio dijo:
Meh, sigue siendo inferior al feat en que pudo escapar el suficiente tiempo de Black Flash.

We are talking specifically about Wally>DragonBall-Verse. This is based on my own research.

Compared to the other DC Comics I have no idea.

Orfosaurio dijo:
El problema acá es el encuadre, básicamente desde antes de la pelea con Piccolo Toriyama dejo de encuadrar la velocidad como algo "tan importante", lo que le resta espectacularidad muy superficial a las velocidades que se manejan en DB. Creo que el máximo punto de "wow que veloz" fue en la pelea de Krillin contra Jackie Chun...

screenshot-2023-06-13-at-18-55-36-dragon-ball-super-mangadex-png.51602

That was the most remarkable time and the other is from Dyspo, who boasts of being fast...

There are not enough feats to support the speed of scale in Dragon Ball and being this series suffers from many inconsistencies.

Es como OPM, ahí como se le da tanta importancia a la destrucción, puede aparentar que sus personajes son muchisimo más OP de lo que en verdad son.

Give me an example.

Por último, eso de "el más rápido en el multiverso" se ha demostrado falso una y otra vez para Wally (y cualquier Flash).

I'm sure you will. But his feats are superior and better explained than in DB.

Axel7 · 2023-08-26T10:55:47-0400

BLACK MAMBA dijo:
We are talking specifically about Wally>DragonBall-Verse. This is based on my own research.

Compared to the other DC Comics I have no idea.

That was the most remarkable time and the other is from Dyspo, who boasts of being fast...

There are not enough feats to support the speed of scale in Dragon Ball and being this series suffers from many inconsistencies.

Give me an example.

I'm sure you will. But his feats are superior and better explained than in DB.

¿No era que desde el arco de Freezer con sus rayos dodonpa se llegaba a la velocidad de la luz?

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T18:14:51-0400

Axel7 dijo:
Lo digo por el núcleo de energía que le pusieron qué podría tener otro tipo de energía aparte del ki para que sea infinita.

Esa otra energía es genki, parte del ki, y más que infinita, es "stamina" inagotable.

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T18:24:52-0400

BLACK MAMBA dijo:
We are talking specifically about Wally>DragonBall-Verse. This is based on my own research.

Compared to the other DC Comics I have no idea.

That was the most remarkable time and the other is from Dyspo, who boasts of being fast...

There are not enough feats to support the speed of scale in Dragon Ball and being this series suffers from many inconsistencies.

Give me an example.

I'm sure you will. But his feats are superior and better explained than in DB.

Explain your research, don't just say that according to it Wally is supposedly faster than any DB character, despite many of them never showing their maximum speed (or even if they have a true limit to it).
That feat of Kokun is nothing to him moving "faster than time" to counter Hit time stop. And about the supposed inconsistencies, they are on our poor understanding, not in the verse itself, just like when we do 'science' and we obserbe something that "makes no sense", we presume that is a problem of our 'theories' and not with the "universe being nonsensical".
About OPM, for example, the punch that Saitama gave to Genos but that didn't hit him appeared, in a very superficial way, to be more powerfull that the continental level attack of Nappa raising his fingers.
Is not much about DB explaining poorly their feats, is more the fact that DB doensn't expose too much about that sort of things, they are not the main focus, at all. In DC, many times, but not always, the main focus is to expose well the feats to remember the audience the "divine" level of their characters.

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-26T18:26:23-0400

Axel7 dijo:
¿No era que desde el arco de Freezer con sus rayos dodonpa se llegaba a la velocidad de la luz?

El makenkosapo ya era relativista en la saga de los saiyans o incluso FTL.

USER · 2023-08-26T21:05:03-0400

Orfosaurio dijo:
Explain your research, don't just say that according to it Wally is supposedly faster than any DB character, despite many of them never showing their maximum speed (or even if they have a true limit to it).

For you, which is the fastest Dragon Ball character?

Orfosaurio dijo:
That feat of Kokun is nothing to him moving "faster than time" to counter Hit time stop. And about the supposed inconsistencies, they are on our poor understanding, not in the verse itself, just like when we do 'science' and we obserbe something that "makes no sense", we presume that is a problem of our 'theories' and not with the "universe being nonsensical".

Well, we're supposed to be discussing who wins the fight.

Orfosaurio dijo:
About OPM, for example, the punch that Saitama gave to Genos but that didn't hit him appeared, in a very superficial way, to be more powerfull that the continental level attack of Nappa raising his fingers.

That doesn't look like Continent Lvl. Neither in Manga nor in Anime.

This is Conitente Lvl:

Orfosaurio dijo:
Is not much about DB explaining poorly their feats, is more the fact that DB doensn't expose too much about that sort of things, they are not the main focus, at all. In DC, many times, but not always, the main focus is to expose well the feats to remember the audience the "divine" level of their characters.

At least Wally stands out for speed and with more stable and logical bases. With DB we don't have a good guide to follow the power levels, because they constantly change and sometimes they don't even make sense... Goku has good speed feat, I'm even taking into account his best speed feats, even so he is inferior to Wally in that aspect.

USER · 2023-08-26T21:15:40-0400

Axel7 dijo:
¿No era que desde el arco de Freezer con sus rayos dodonpa se llegaba a la velocidad de la luz?

I didn't find that one, but I did find Piccolo's which is already Relativist easily.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/5/59/Regulargargantuancassowary.mp4/revision/latest?cb=20230714160647

In the Frieza saga they are Massively FTL.

Axel7 · 2023-08-26T22:07:32-0400

Que recuerde algo de feat de velocidad esta en el primer entrenamiento de gaoku y krillin con roshi qué los hace correr.
También está el tema del camino de la serpiente qué es como vi que hacían algunos usando la distancia como pasó con ichigo y las noches.
Otro es cuando Gotenks recorre la tierra varias veces.

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-27T04:46:38-0400

BLACK MAMBA dijo:
For you, which is the fastest Dragon Ball character?

Well, we're supposed to be discussing who wins the fight.

That doesn't look like Continent Lvl. Neither in Manga nor in Anime.

This is Conitente Lvl:

At least Wally stands out for speed and with more stable and logical bases. With DB we don't have a good guide to follow the power levels, because they constantly change and sometimes they don't even make sense... Goku has good speed feat, I'm even taking into account his best speed feats, even so he is inferior to Wally in that aspect.

We clearly don't know which is the fastest character on DB besides Toribot, if I have to guess, I'll said that Zeno and Daishinkand, and among fighters, Gohan Beast, even though Cell Max was the one who visible blitzed, until Gohan Beast.

I never said that that punch of Saitama was continent level, what I said was that that punch, very superficially, appeared stronger than the Nappa attack, is more "flashy", just like DC with it's speed and other parameters (well, not so much compared to OPM).

I insist, in DB we need to use power scalling and calculate, there aren't many "flashy feats", Toriyama doesn't like those, and with time, his disliking grew even more for that aspect of any of his works. He want's to draw a Sun with glasses, not the things he usually is asked.

Both Kokun and Wally are still in the quadrillion times C level, that feat supposedly being faster than "the speed" is actually him running very fast and saying that. He doesn't have the intelligence to undertstand the speed force of any of those things to the point of actually knowing wether he is "faster than it", even more if he is not doing and extraordinary thing while being "that fast". Even the feat of Kokun blitzing through a time stop of a multiverse level being is a far greater feat than that. Yes, Wally can "stop time", but that's different to blitzing through a time stop that even the Gods of Destruction could casually get over (even though that they casually could destroy multiple 4D universes only with the start of a fight between them).

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-27T04:50:24-0400

Axel7 dijo:
Que recuerde algo de feat de velocidad esta en el primer entrenamiento de gaoku y krillin con roshi qué los hace correr.
También está el tema del camino de la serpiente qué es como vi que hacían algunos usando la distancia como pasó con ichigo y las noches.
Otro es cuando Gotenks recorre la tierra varias veces.

Lo importante del feat de Gotenks es que la estela de su ki (visible) se mantuvo inalterada en lo que termino de dar esas vueltas, y se ha visto que superando masivamente la velocidad de la luz, esa estela normalmente desaparece poco detrás. Eso fue por varias cosas, pero mayormente porque quiso acelerar lo más posible sin cansarse para probarse, y por otro lado, porque al haber alcanzado un nivel tan superior, no fue eficiente, pero aún así, esa eficiencia permitía "cortar cortamente" la estela siendo MFTL, así que su salto en velocidad fue enorme a pesar del aspecto de la poca eficiencia.

USER · 2023-08-28T17:10:17-0400

Orfosaurio dijo:
We clearly don't know which is the fastest character on DB besides Toribot, if I have to guess, I'll said that Zeno and Daishinkand, and among fighters, Gohan Beast, even though Cell Max was the one who visible blitzed, until Gohan Beast.

I never said that that punch of Saitama was continent level, what I said was that that punch, very superficially, appeared stronger than the Nappa attack, is more "flashy", just like DC with it's speed and other parameters (well, not so much compared to OPM).

I insist, in DB we need to use power scalling and calculate, there aren't many "flashy feats", Toriyama doesn't like those, and with time, his disliking grew even more for that aspect of any of his works. He want's to draw a Sun with glasses, not the things he usually is asked.

Both Kokun and Wally are still in the quadrillion times C level, that feat supposedly being faster than "the speed" is actually him running very fast and saying that. He doesn't have the intelligence to undertstand the speed force of any of those things to the point of actually knowing wether he is "faster than it", even more if he is not doing and extraordinary thing while being "that fast". Even the feat of Kokun blitzing through a time stop of a multiverse level being is a far greater feat than that. Yes, Wally can "stop time", but that's different to blitzing through a time stop that even the Gods of Destruction could casually get over (even though that they casually could destroy multiple 4D universes only with the start of a fight between them).

+

Gohan Beast cannot blitz Wally.

Orfosaurio · 2023-08-30T03:00:09-0400

BLACK MAMBA dijo:
+

Gohan Beast cannot blitz Wally.

If we guided ourselves with statements, well yes. But statements are not all. I remember you, that not even the Speed Force is the fastest thing in DC, characters like Lucifer are well above the Speed Force. That thing of "being the fastest" has ben shown being a lie again and again in DC.

USER · 2023-08-30T05:46:42-0400

Orfosaurio dijo:
If we guided ourselves with statements, well yes. But statements are not all. I remember you, that not even the Speed Force is the fastest thing in DC, characters like Lucifer are well above the Speed Force. That thing of "being the fastest" has ben shown being a lie again and again in DC.

Lucifer is infinite. Wally doesn't stand a chance against him.

IrvingRequiem · 9 Sep 2023

Si es por velocidad gana Wally en dificultad MUY fácil, se sabe que es el personaje más veloz de todo el Multiverso de DC, superando a Green Lantern, Superman, la velocidad de la luz así como la barrera espacio temporal donde estan corredores como Jay, Barry, Eobard, y cualquier otro velocista existente, superando incluso la velocidad de la Muerte misma.

Ya por otros feats gana Goku, pero en velocidad gana Wally por descarte.

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